"I was on a skiing holiday with lots of friends. And it did involve a bit of après sky, bit of fancy dress, bit of dancing, and one or two little drinking poos. But if you friends started saying, Joff, what are you even drinking? Your speech is sounding funny. And in my mind, I was finding it more difficult to form my words. Now that's called dysarthria."
We talk about motor neurone disease (MND), also known as Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis (ALS), with Pauline from the MND Association and Joff, who shares what diagnosis and day-to-day life really look like. We explore how symptoms show up, why support and research urgency matter, and how small acts of understanding can make public spaces safer and kinder.
- What MND is and why symptoms vary so much
- The long process of ruling out other conditions
- Prevalence
- Resilience and adapting to change
- The helpful role of the Sunflower in preventing being misjudged
If you are concerned about any of the subjects discussed in the podcast, please follow up with your healthcare practitioner for support.
For support
- MND Association UK
- Irish Motor Neurone Disease
- The ALS Association USA
- ALS Canada
You can also watch the conversation on our YouTube channel.
Hosted by Chantal Boyle, Hidden Disabilities Sunflower.
Scroll down for the full transcript.
Transcript MND/ ALS with Pauline Matheson-Marks and Jon Machel
Chantal Boyle (00:19)
Welcome to the Sunflower Conversations. I am your host and my name is Chantal And today we are going to be talking about motor neurone disease. Joining me on today's podcast is Pauline Matheson-Marx and Joff
Machel Pauline is coming to the conversation from the MND association, so lots of experience and she's going to help to guide us through what motor neurone disease is and Joff is joining us from the perspective of lived experience. So thank you both for joining us on the Sunflower Conversations.
I'm going to give a brief visual description for accessibility. I am a female with brown skin. I'm middle aged. I have long brown curly hair. I am wearing glasses and I have a white Sunflower, proud to support Lanyard on and I have some plants behind me. Pauline, would you like to go next?
Pauline Matheson-Marks (01:23)
Yeah sure, so I'm middle aged female ⁓ with blonde hair, green eyes, a pink t-shirt and I'm in a green room.
Chantal Boyle (01:34)
Beautiful. Thank you.
Joff Machell (01:37)
So I'm 56, male. I've got sort of gingery coloured of hair, glasses, lots of freckles and a very flowery shirt. I'm in a blue and white room.
Chantal Boyle (01:55)
It's actually the same colour that we're just decorating one of our rooms in is that blue. And the green that you've got there, Pauline, is what I'm thinking to decorate one of my other rooms in. we must have very similar taste in colours.
Okay, so let's begin. MND is the acronym or the short term for motor neurone disease, which affects the nerves known as motor neurons. These nerves are found in the brain and spinal cord, and they help to tell your muscles what to do. That's an extract from the MND Association's website. So first of all, Pauline, please, I want to come to you.
Could you expand a little bit more about what MND is and are there different hopes of it?
Pauline Matheson-Marks (02:39)
Mm-hmm.
Yep, absolutely.
MND is a progressive neurological condition that affects the brain and spinal cord. So very similar to how you've described it, Chantal. Everybody with MND experiences it in completely different ways. So initial symptoms for some could be mobility issues. that might, know, somebody might struggle perhaps to pick something up or find that their grip has changed, or maybe they're finding that they're tripping up more or just tripping up, that that's maybe something that they've not experienced before. And for other people,
can be your speech that's affected first. So very different for different people.
MND itself is considered to be an umbrella term for a number of diseases. Generally, more than half of people diagnosed with MND will die within two years of diagnosis. Some people will live for longer than that. There's a type of MND called PLS and some people may live with PLS for 10, 15 or longer. In America, MND is known as ALS or Lou Gehrig's disease in parts of
Europe you also sometimes hear reference to ALS and not MND.
Chantal Boyle (03:58)
Thanks for that, because this podcast is global. so having that difference explained is really helpful. And I'll make sure I'll use those terms in the description of the podcast so that when we have audiences from outside of the UK listening, they know that this is the podcast for them if they're interested in this topic. I guess, Joff, if you wouldn't mind, if I could just come to you, if I could ask you, what were
Chantal Boyle (04:28)
your first symptoms at the beginning of the podcast you said to me that your speech is slurred now so it'll be interesting to find out what your symptoms were at the beginning.
Joff Machell (04:41)
You know, first things first, Chantal Thank you so much to you and the Hidden Disabilities team for covering MND and raising the profile of this really horrible disease. ⁓ I am extremely grateful to you all. It was about a year and a bit ago, about February 2025, I was on a skiing holiday with lots of friends.
and it did involve a bit of après sky, bit of fancy dress, bit of dancing, and one or two little drinking poos. But if you both start saying, Joff, what are you even drinking? Your speech is sounding funny. And in my mind, I was finding it more difficult to form my words. Now that's called dysarthria. And then whenever we went back to work, those impressions...
by my friends continued, especially during phone calls with old friends that knew me very well. And then I worked as an orthodontist, straightening teeth. And whilst I could continue to do the fine motor skills associated with my work, I was finding it hard typing up my notes. My typing slowed down.
and I started making lots of typos. So I sought help from my GP and there we embarked on a long journey of discovery. There isn't a simple single test where the blood says, you got MND. It's more of a ruling things out. Now, the...
cause of third speech are many, but none of very nice. It seems like head trauma, stroke, brain tumour, MS, maybe Lyme disease or MND. And obviously you do a bit of a research yourself. So I have that list in back of my mind. And as the journey went on, I had lots of blood tests, MRI scans.
Loads of points to different people and they started to tick off the things that it wasn't. So I was very relieved that it wasn't brain tumour and they said it wasn't a stroke because the scan was clear. But I started, the spectre of MND was definitely there in the back of my mind. ⁓ I did get some hope at one point because
I tested positive for Lyme disease. I used to keep alpacas and animals. I've got some fields where I live. And I thought the blood test showed that I might have been bitten by a tick and that can cause something called Lyme neurobiology, which can cause slurred speech.
Chantal Boyle (07:52)
you
Joff Machell (08:00)
But as the test went on, they did the lumbar puncture and muscle conduction test. And then unfortunately, in October, they confirmed that it indeed was MND. And it was very important in Chantal because that same week, I turned on the news and Lewis Moody was there.
with his wife Annie on the BBC News. Tim, he had just been diagnosed too. So it was a very tough time.
Chantal Boyle (08:38)
I can imagine. you said you're 56. So that seems to me to be quite young, Pauline. that in terms of... age range of when it occurs, is there any statistics around that?
Is it a genetic disorder? Is there a prevalence stronger towards men or women? What do we know about it?
Pauline Matheson-Marks (09:02)
Yeah, so I mean we know that MND affects people from all backgrounds,
of all ages, there is more of a prevalence in men, only slightly more, and that's just based on the information about the people that we know living with MND. A person's risk of developing the disease increases as they get older. And when I think about the people that we're supporting, we're supporting more people over the age of 60 than under the age of 60, but as I've said, you know, it affects people of all ages.
Because your risk increases as you get older, that would explain why we're supporting more people over the age of 60. But as I say, because of fact it can affect anybody of any background, of any age, we see that whole spectrum relate teens to people living in their 90s and everybody.
Chantal Boyle (09:58)
really,
teens can also get it. it's not a genetic, it's not genetics.
Pauline Matheson-Marks (10:02)
side.
There are types of MND which are familial, so they are genetic, but that accounts for quite a small percentage of total cases of MND. I mean, there's a lot of research which is underway just in terms of trying to understand why it occurs.
Chantal Boyle (10:18)
Thank you.
Pauline Matheson-Marks (10:27)
And there's lots of work to try and kind of unpack that, but we still don't know exactly why it happens in terms of is it environmental, is it lifestyle, is it specific genes, is there a predisposition? It's just a really complex and difficult disease.
Chantal Boyle (10:47)
That's something that MND Association is involved in, with research?
Pauline Matheson-Marks (10:52)
Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of research and there's been a lot of progress made in research over the past 10 years to try and understand what some of the specific causes might be and to try and understand, you know, treatments, you know, what treatments might be available. And the vision, you know, the vision which we're working towards is a world free from MND. So there's a lot of investment going into being able to realise that.
Chantal Boyle (11:18)
Thank you. And Joff, so you're an orthodontist. The typing was difficult, but you were still able to work. Are you still working now?
Joff Machell (11:29)
No, I stopped in ⁓ November last year actually because you know my balance is not quite as good as it was. I'm a bit more ⁓ staircases I have to be very careful and recently I have been having a few falls. So I took the decision, bear in mind.
there is unfortunately no cure. And the enormous use of words, "time" your time is limited, which I thought I need to spend that precious time with my family, my two children, Emron and Alexander, and my friends. But I also thought I...
I was very lucky, I've got some lovely colleagues who looked after my patients for me. So I thought this is a really good opportunity for me to try and do something positive to help the M &D Association try to raise awareness. So in the future, hopefully this isn't going to be an issue for people.
Everyone thinks MND is a very rare disease, I was talking to Pauline earlier, it affects about one in 300 people in their lifetime. And that is a very scary number because, you know, you go and watch a movie, there could easily be 300 people in that room. You think, well, it could be me. So the good news is there is a massive
community of people keen to fight MND. There been some very high profile cases. mean, everyone knows the Grey's Anatomy actor, Eric Dane, who very sadly died recently. And there was an amazing rugby league player, Rob Burrow, who was incredibly brave. And his best friend, Kevin Sinfield, is doing incredible things.
He's raised over 14 million pounds, doing marathons. But if you look around, there are so many people doing bike rides, walks. One of my patients that I was treated felt pretty sad when he heard about me. So he baked those cupcakes and raised quite a of with his friends. And it's that kind of stuff that made me realise...
how strong this sense of love and community is and how committed people are to around battle this disease because it really is horrible.
Chantal Boyle (14:32)
Yeah.
When the symptoms first occurred was when you were skiing, which sounds like a fabulous experience. You obviously worked really hard, you were able to participate in really nice activities. Has this, what you're going through, taught you some things about yourself?
and your resilience or have you been on one hell of a roller coaster journey?
Joff Machell (15:04)
I've always been really, really active, Chantal I love, I was very lucky, I love my job. I love swimming. Two and a half years ago, I swam the 11-mile length of Lake Windermere for different charity. And that took six and a half hours. I grew up in St Ives in Cornwall
So I always used to all my time at the beach surfing with my friends and you know, like all sorts of sports, running, cycling and skateboarding was my big passion. But I can't do that anymore. Even if I wouldn't dare try and run because I'd be like a scarecrow. I'd fall over in a heap.
I thought rather dwelling on what I can't do, let's figure out what I can do. And I can still spend lots of lovely time with family and friends. It was my birthday last weekend, we had a big get together, we would dress up in Hawaiian outfits and that was brilliant. I can go for a slow walk with my...
wife, my family. I love wildlife and nature. Flowers and birds and being outside and we're going to the beach. And I can do little dips in the water. I couldn't do a long swim. But I've been trying to do some chilly dips in funny places to raise money for the
association and that has been brilliant fun. So an answer in a very long winded answer to a short question. I'm still having fun, I'm enjoying life and if I can put something back, while I still can, then that will give me hope for other people.
Chantal Boyle (17:20)
It's such a positive outlook and approach to living with this and the fact that everyone around you is really supportive, your clients, the patients, and obviously your family and friends. ⁓ Yeah, you must be such, I don't like to use this word, ⁓ but you must be such an inspiration to everybody around you
for how you have come to be living with this on daily.
Joff Machell (17:59)
Well, I mean, I just feel really privileged, but literally, I think the nature of the disease is such that everyone I know and people that don't know have literally gathered around like a giant team. So where I used to work, it was called Exeter Orthodontics in Exeter in Devon. The manager of the practice, Terry Goldsmith,
She's organized a massive great walk this weekend ⁓ from Exeter to Exmouth and loads of people are doing bike rides and fun stuff. It is like an amazing community of people with one aim in mind and that's until theres a cure
You know, there's no finish line.
Chantal Boyle (18:57)
Yeah,
and that's it, it's building a community and a lot of podcasts that I interview or chat with people about their disabilities, no matter what they are, one of the things that comes out a lot is after diagnosis or even before diagnosis, but living with something that is impacting on a daily basis can be incredibly isolating.
And that need actually to reduce the isolation, how that improved the outlook, you know, like 360. So to know that you're not alone and you're bringing people together or you're connecting with other people who are living with the same challenges is something that is incredibly important. And I think charities such as MND Association who are able to kind of be a linchpin in helping to support
patients and their families are crucial, aren't they?
Joff Machell (20:00)
They're really brilliant challenges. I can't say they're shunt up. One of the things they do that I've found really, really helpful is they have this regular meetings where you can have Zoom meetings and face-to-face with other sufferers. And I've really, really made a point of trying to meet lots of other people with MND.
And what comes across is a strength, the resilience, the humour, people from all ages, all backgrounds, they're faced with this awful diagnosis, but they are laughing, joking, and doing their best, you know. And, you know, I would say, your turn on the TV, your turn on the news,
and you read about what's happened in the world and conflict and war, and you only ever hear the bad things. What MND has taught me is the vast majority of people are really, really, really lovely, kind, loving, giving, and we only hear about the bad stuff, but I think letting go of toxicity and hate and focusing on love and...
I mean, I've had more hugs in the last six months than I've ever had. it's, yeah, a smile or a hug makes you feel so good. So I think turn off the news, have a hug instead.
Chantal Boyle (21:47)
I think we both agree with that, we, Pauline? My goodness. You should be the anchor newsman, I reckon, Joff. We would turn the fortunes of the whole world around.
Pauline Matheson-Marks (21:56)
Definitely.
Chantal Boyle (22:06)
We know another ⁓ individual, his name's Kirk Gittens, who we have quite a close affiliation with at The Sunflower here, who's also got motor neurone disease, and we're participating in a bungee jump to support him with fundraising efforts.
Pauline Matheson-Marks (22:25)
I'm
Chantal Boyle (22:26)
To say that I am absolutely petrified is an
understatement. anybody listening to this, please go on to the MND Association website afterwards, because they have a donate page and it all goes into the same pot. Whether it's supporting Joff and his friends and colleagues on long walks and chilly swims or whatever it might be, there's a big reason that this is being done to
continue with research etc. So one of the things I wanted to ask is about the Everyday Matters campaign and why can you explain why it's called that and what's the purpose of the campaign?
Pauline Matheson-Marks (23:00)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, absolutely. I have to say, having just ⁓ listened to you, Joff, I think you really embody everyday matters. You know, if was ever a kind of...
bringing it to life, absolutely have. ⁓ But I guess just in terms of the context behind Everyday Matters, so the brand hadn't been reviewed for about 10 years. So it felt like now was an opportunity to really have something impactful. And we heard from the community that we needed to be more urgent, bolder, and work faster. Because for people with MND, time isn't on their side.
So there was a lot of listening to the community actually, what do you need from us and how can we be as impactful as possible? And through that process, it really came through how precious everyday is. And that theme was a recurring theme in terms of everyday matters. So that really is like the core of the new brand. And it's a really good way of us as an association representing the community. So we've listened to what they've said, but I think it also holds us to account in terms of
that commitment to making sure that every day does matter through the support we provide, the information that we provide. We're raising funds that are actually making a really tangible difference. So that's a little bit of the background and context.
Chantal Boyle (24:31)
It's a great name. I mean, it's impactful. It's straight to the heart of it, isn't it? ⁓ And I want to ask what your views are about the Hidden Disabilities Sunflower. And I'd like to ask both of you about that because you're coming from lived experience and then also from professional experience. Pauline, what are your views of the Sunflower?
Pauline Matheson-Marks (24:36)
Yeah.
That's it.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I mean, I think it's really important for people to feel recognised and understood when they're going about their daily life. And just, you know, reflecting on what Joff shared and also kind of my experience over the past 13 years have been at the association. Some of the challenges that people with MND experience, know, such as with speech, you know, we've heard anecdotally that people have been accused of perhaps being drunk or because of their speech being slurred or being
and steady on their feet. And I think having something really distinctive, like the Sunflower lanyard because it's instantly recognisable, helps people who understand what that is. And I think it's become quite mainstream in terms of it being so recognisable. So seeing that on an individual, you know, immediately you understand that they might need a little bit more time, a little bit more support. And I think it just opens your eyes to actually, I need to support that person in a way that is going to be.
the best for them. I think as a bit of an add-on, we signed up to the communication access symbol, which is an initiative for organisations to sign up to. And what it means, if an organisation signed up to the communication access scheme, they're including it in a directory and they've got some information, sometimes it's displayed outside of shops. Not everybody's signed up to that. So I think with the Sunflower Lanyard,
that really complements that because of it being so instantly recognisable.
Joff Machell (26:32)
I agree with you Pauline. ⁓ I think the lanyard is so valuable. It really is. I mean, I'm at a point now where I do sound very strange when I'm speak in shops and on the telephone I'm having to try to explain why I'm speaking that way because I do sound like I've been drinking and mainly the
Pauline Matheson-Marks (26:33)
See ya.
Joff Machell (27:02)
the signs that I'm displaying, I walk along and I'm tottering around and bumping into things. And I have fallen over quite a lot of times. I'm a bit bruised and sore when I'm at that stage where I'm still walking. I'm not in a wheelchair, but obviously it's a matter of time before I will need some additional support. So if I'm in a public place,
Pauline Matheson-Marks (27:18)
Yeah.
Joff Machell (27:32)
If I can wear my Sunflower lanyard, that is going to be so valuable to let people know this guy give me a little bit of room and the way he's walking and talking is due to something else. And certainly when I was working, Pauline, I found it was really helpful, especially after COVID.
Pauline Matheson-Marks (27:38)
Thank
again.
Joff Machell (28:02)
lots and lots of my teenage patients would year lanyards due to anxiety or autism or ADHD and that kind of thing. And it was so helpful for me as a clinician, just think, be kind, take a bit longer, be understanding. And with that, would say, Chantal, you're doing a brilliant job with hidden disabilities.
Pauline Matheson-Marks (28:02)
Yep.
you
Joff Machell (28:31)
I think more could be done in terms of promoting what you're doing, letting people know more about the great work that you're doing to educate the general public so people have more understanding and empathy.
Chantal Boyle (28:51)
How it works, Joff, is that your orthodontist practice, they can join, become a member. Then they get access to the training and resources. And the idea is that each business, charity, organisation that joins shares our training with all of their colleagues and their volunteers.
So then they then become a Sunflower friendly member. then, then obviously, because of the statistics of hidden disabilities, non-visible disabilities, everyone in some shape or form will be impacted, whether it's themselves, a family member, a colleague, a friend, a neighbour. So then it just, swells. And that's how knowledge and awareness of it is growing and expanding.
I mean, it's in over 340 airports globally now, where it just started off at Gatwick in 2016, 10 years ago. So we are on a mission with your help and this podcast and the MND Association are going to become Sunflower members as well. So that everybody, when they see that little symbol, whether somebody's wearing it as a...
lanyard with a big sign around their neck or if they've just got a discrete pin badge, everybody will know this person has a non-visible disability. I'm not going to judge. I'm going to give an offer of support. I'm going to give extra time, be patient and understanding. You know, it's not difficult. It's really not difficult.
Pauline Matheson-Marks (30:25)
No,
and I think as well, you know as an association.
we provide like prompt cards and a wristband, but you some people might not want to disclose the fact they have MND. They just want to have a little bit of extra space and a bit of extra time and you know, extra support, you know, whether that's, you know, they're in a shop or an airport or whatever the setting might be. So I think because it is, you know, instantly and globally, you know, recognised, it just means that you can kind of go about your day, you know, with the lanyard or like the pin badge without having to kind of explain yourself or something.
I think that's really important for some people.
Joff Machell (31:03)
the logo is beautiful. It radiates positivity and you know, it's a light, bright, easily recognisable symbol. I think you've gone about it in the right way. I think it's a really, really good thing.
I've gone on to get my digital card. Yeah, I will. Yeah, I will.
Chantal Boyle (31:27)
Are you going to get a digital one, the Sunflower Extra? Perfect.
Then it really does remove the need for doing any talking or explaining that they're excellent. So emotional and practical support must be crucial to the lived experience and outcomes for families. What type of support do MND Association provide Pauline?
Joff Machell (31:37)
Thank you.
Pauline Matheson-Marks (31:40)
Mm-hmm.
Okay, so we provide support in a number of different ways through a number of different channels and Joff, you've already shared a little bit of your experience of the support groups which have been both in person and online. We also provide support over the phone through our helpline MND Connect. So we have a huge amount of information and literature and online isn't for everybody. So it's very much, we can provide hard copies of information for people.
really quickly, really easily. There's information for family members, for children, young people, as well as people who are living with MND. We've got our local support, as Joff alluded to. So we've got networks of branches and groups across England, Wales and Northern Ireland. In some areas, we've got association visitor volunteers who might provide some additional befriending support. So that could be over the phone. could be in teams calls. It might be meeting in the garden
centre having a coffee. We've introduced new groups, again based on people's experience of living with MND. There was a new group introduced, I think it was year before last, for people with MND who are still working. It's a community that people can come and meet and share their experiences of what's working and what's not working and get some of that peer support. We also provide financial support. So we've got an extensive financial support programmeme which covers wellbeing, so that might be contribution
towards holidays, hobbies, it might be you know something in your garden, could be complementary therapy, that support is available for people with MND but also their carers and children.
We provide support for everyday livings, that could be equipment, could be contributions towards adaptations. So it's really designed to work, I suppose, complement what's available through the NHS. We also provide support through technology and innovation. So again, designed to complement what's available through the NHS. So it could be some funding if somebody wanted to be able to bank their voice. So banking your voice, you record a number of phrases.
and
then you're able to download that onto, it might be an iPad, and then the output is a synthetic version of your voice, but the technology's moved on to a point where some of the voices are absolutely amazing. You wouldn't tell that it was synthetic. sounds. Absolutely.
Chantal Boyle (34:19)
You can use that as a communication aid so that you can
talk to people via the tablet or whatever the digital device is.
Pauline Matheson-Marks (34:30)
Absolutely, and you're talking in your voice and the technology has moved on to a point where some of the systems get the intonation and picks up your accent and how that's moved on is absolutely incredible. So we provide funding towards that and also cost of living has been and will continue to be a real challenge so we provide support there as well. We've also got a benefits advice service.
We've got the online forum so that's available 24 hours a day and is a really good source of peer support and information.
⁓ It's really important as well to mention the support for families, for children. We've got counselling available through our partnership with Barnardo's.
The team will also work with schools to give them a bit of information and support. So if they've got a pupil whose family member has MND, they're able to, my team can talk to the school about some of the strategies that they might want to put in place which can be really, really, really helpful. We've also got our memory boxes and treasure boxes for children and the team.
The support's also there post-beravement. So MND moves fast, it takes away time. So actually for some people there's so much going on that it's not until they lose their loved one that they think actually I need something for me. So the support doesn't stop. And some people like Joff take comfort and actually take an action. So whether that's raising money, campaigning,
volunteering, you know, sometimes the support is not about what you receive but what you give or you know a combination of everything so yeah there's a lot there.
Chantal Boyle (36:07)
Yes.
Thank you. There's
a lot there and it's very comforting to actually hear how well thought out it is to cover all aspects of the family through the entire journey. You're not alone with MND, ⁓ so that's really important. We'll include links to the MND Association and associated similar
Pauline Matheson-Marks (36:30)
Absolutely.
Chantal Boyle (36:41)
charities in other countries to the show notes so that people can seek support if they need it.
Thank you both. Thank you for giving up your time to join us on the Sunflower Conversations. This podcast is going to be in existence from now until forever, whenever. So ⁓ anybody listening to this, please share it because you're hearing it from Joff, who has lived experience, sharing with you what his daily life is like and why it's important that we all
learn more about it and that we can all contribute to hopefully bringing an end to this disease and improving the life chances and expectancy of people who are diagnosed with it. Joff did you have a final word that you would like to end on?
Joff Machell (37:35)
I wanted to say a couple of thank yous if you don't mind. Firstly to my wife because she's been incredibly kind and I think the impact on families can't be underestimated. It really truly is awful because you lose the ability to really care for yourself which you know when you get married don't expect that's
going to happen to your partner. So thank you to her and my family and to the British Orthodontic Society that has been incredibly kind and supportive for me and very generous in supporting the charity and supporting everyone that works at the MNDA. Thank you. You're helping me stay positive. And if I can help you while I'm still well enough to do so.
with fundraising and anything I can do. I'd love to do that. But finally, Chantal I'm really grateful to you for talking about MND or ALS, putting it out there because the more conversation we can start,
the more chance we got. The research is very, very exciting in MND moment. I went to a research day recently and they are getting optimistic that we're going to figure it out for too long. So I think if we can lobby our politicians and our friends, try to really push for more funding for research,
then I think in the future we will find a cure for MND.
Chantal Boyle (39:31)
Optimism, that's what we're ending on. Thank you, Joff. Thank you very much. Thank you, Pauline.
Pauline Matheson-Marks (39:32)
you.
Thank you and thank you for the
